(no subject)

[matilda36]

I spent quite a lot of time with my big sis cleo1969 discussing the damage inflicted on new writers by bad fic and bad feedback.
I know that livejournal is full of such discussions... it is one place where a lot of fic and feedback goes around, but I am in a place at the moment in which writing for me is a pretty tricky subject, as my mate, toby_white_wolf , joereaves , teigh_corvus , japeweird and a few others that had to deal with my temper tantrums recently know well. Yesterday they managed to persuade me to write a fic. I started a second one, then I read a very bad fic, with bad feedback included and I simply closed the file.  I am feeling fragile in my writing at the moment, so I decided instead to post this, trying to clear my mind on the subject a little with hopefully a little help from my f-list.
.
I am a terrible perfectionist. At my annual review my boss had to argue with me because I always thought he was too generous with my markings. I also have a low self esteem, and I tend to be easily discouraged by compliments. Yes, by compliments. Flames i ignore. Criticism I listen to, compliments... I don't believe them. 

That's why I do hate feedback of the "Good job" quality. Leaving aside the issue of the the good intentions of leaving this kind of feedback, I think it is not only useless, but also damaging to writers, new or old alike for the following reasons:

1) This kind of comment tend to be given indiscriminately,  not helping other readers to discriminate.
2) and not helping new writers in understanding what is good, what simply fits the models and what is seriously bad.
3) No fic and no writer is perfect. Part of the writer's job, as moonshayde was pointing out so eloquently recently is to keep learning . Feedback is one way to point out to a writer what they are doing right and what they are doing wrong. If you don't want to tell them what's wrong, at least tell them what they did particularly right.
4) Even pointing out good things is helpful to other readers that in this way may get to look at a fic in a different way.

I think I could go on for a couple of hours here, but I'll stop here and open up the discussion to the floor.
How do you like your feedback? Do you think that every fic deserve a kind word or should we be discerning? Writers do you find the feedback left to you useful?

ETA: Thanks to everybody who has until now partecipated to the dicussion. You are being terrific, helping me a lot and I want more!
And to encourage you I was just checking Fandom_Wank and found this: http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/980296.html#cutid1

Comments

[mistokath13.livejournal.com]

So, if we don't have time, you think that giving the author a quick "I loved it" is worse than leaving no feedback at all? (By the way, I think a lot of feedback is of that variety - a quick "I loved it" or "MORE!", maybe even "MORE-NOW!!!")

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

It depends. If you liked the fic, but you don't have time a quick I love it more later or I am sorry I have not time is fine, but what if the fic is average or bad? Would you leave a "I loved it" or "More please?" all the same?

[verito295.livejournal.com]

No, I personally don't leave FB if I think the fic is mediocre or bad. Sometimes I don't even have time to leave it for some of the fics I do like. But if it's something I loved I either make sure to leave FB, no matter the lenght, or contact the writer directly for some needed poking

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I also don't leave feedback for a fic that is bad. Maybe I'm too nice when it comes to that. But I don't think most people are lookign for constructive crit unless they say so.

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

I do agree with not leaving negative fb.

If a fic it's bad, oblivion must be it's destiny...

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

*Holds hands up*

I am writing i swear...

[mistokath13.livejournal.com]

Hm. That is a good question, really. What if the fic really is bad? I'm not entirely sure I can say something about this subject, since (as you know) I think my own fic is not-that-good. I guess it's probably nicer to hit the back button instead of leaving a flame. If the fic is really bad.
But, even then, a nice word here and there makes the world a little bit brighter. Of course we all complain and groan about places like ff.net and the average quality of the fics there. But - how do you learn how to write, if not by writing? Since I started scribbling (definitely not writing), I noticed that I really got better. Not good, mind you, but better.

Considering that I left absolutely no feedback to almost no fic at all since my personal doomsday, I better should not say anything now, but if a fic is bad, I'm probably not going to leave any feedback at all. What makes my day? I can't say. I love all sorts of feedback, long or short. :)
Oh, and Ody? *gentle poke* can we read your finished fic, please? (Another thing: I find it kinda...unsettling when I give someone a fic to beta, and tell them to tell me where are holes in the plot and where it simply just sucks, so, basically just ask for Constructive Criticism, and get a "It looks good, I love it"-kinda comment...but that's maybe just me.)

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

I am quite lucky... I do have a group of people that are "trained" to give me the kind of beta I need and that's very much the concrit kind...

The fic is being betaed as we speak and should be with the Council tomorrow.

[writeslikeyoda.livejournal.com]

No one's work is ever perfect. While it is always good to strive for perfection, nothing is ever so.

Even now I have stories I know I could do better, and looking back even on my published work I shudder sometimes to think of all the ways I could've improved it, changed it, made it better.

Sooner or later though, one has to stand back and like seeing a child leave the nest where its been mothered and coddled...one has to let go of the work in hand and let it stand or fall by its own merits.

Perfectionism is neither a sin nor a crime. But neither is it an excuse for failing to determine your own potential.

You have the amazing capacity for making people laugh, and that my dear Ody is quite possibly the hardest thing for any writer to achieve.

Open that file again.

Please?

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

*Hugs Speed*

I have not said I will not open that file again... just that I needed to get this off my chest first.

Personally I do find listening to other people's ideas on a fic lifespan, from bunny to fedback xtremely stimulating and very helpful in clearing my mind.

The file will be open again...tomorrow I promise.

[joereaves.livejournal.com]

Now I disagree with most of what you said - although I would agree that completely indiscriminate fb is annoying. I've seen some appalling fic posted that has had positive fb and you can't help but think ... oh for goodness' sake don't *encourage* him/her! :D

However while I welcome any kind of detailed fb, I like mindless squeeeing just as much. I don't think reading or leaving fb should be something you have to work at. If someone doesn't want to or isn't capable of the time involved in leaving useful detailed fb then that's fine. Sending FB shouldn't have to be hard work. I write because I like writing, but also because I like writing things which other people will enjoy reading (was going to say that will make people smile, but I like angst too so they might end up crying instead). While I would write even if no one read my stuff, I post because I want people to read and to derive pleasure from doing it. So if they leave fb saying they liked it or that they want more, that makes me happy. Obviously I accomplished what I set out to do - I entertained someone for a few minutes.

If I wanted to have to analyse everything I read and think about why I liked it, what worked, what didn't and how to phrase that in a way that is helpful - I'd be studying literature in some kind of academic setting... Something which I have done my best to *avoid* doing whenever possible.

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

I don't think that leaving fb should be hard work. I think it should be a pleasure.

And I do think that if you have enjoyed a fic enough to squee on it, maybe you can also take the time to add a sentence or two telling the writer what you did like.

Not talking about Academic papers here, just things like "I think that the way you portraied the characters is spot on" Or "I find your use of language very interesting". Is it too much to ask?

[joereaves.livejournal.com]

Yes a lot of times I think it is too much to ask. If someone just wants to leave an 'I loved it' that's fine by me.

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

*grins*

does this mean that if I want to say I liked this and that on one of your fic you would be offended?

[joereaves.livejournal.com]

:P I already said I like detailed fb, I just like simple comments too

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

I know, but i couldn't help myself...

*Ody grin*

[verito295.livejournal.com]

Well I agree in a sense. I admit I love to receive long winded FB going over all my plot points and so on but realistically people don't have time. Heck I barely have time to read the stories in my inbox. Lots of them I just don't get around to because of life and Sylum matters. But I still appreciate and collects all my FB, even if it's just a squee or a melted puddle o'pup :D

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

I know time to read stories is an issue... I find myself becoming more and more selective. Even a bit of a fanfic snob :P

[japewierd.livejournal.com]

Ok I get why you hate fb of the 'good job' variety but in it's defense I think there is a place for it.

It's like when a program is aired the makers get back the viewing figures for it, which don't tell them anything except how many people watched - it doesn't tell them what they thought of it. That's what the 'good job' kind of fb gives you - it's the viewing figures, cos who could be bothered to put a web counter on the page to tell you. Books get sales figures, programs get viewing figures, we get number of comments (which doesn't equal the amount of people that read cos the statistics I've seen range from 10-50% of people that actually comment).

Then you get the people who phone the station to either complain or praise a program, which has to be a very small percentage of the people that watched it, but they tell the makers whether it worked or not, and where it did/didn't - and we get concrit and/or flames to do the same job.

So 'good job' has it's place in the grand scheme of things but even quoting a line that particularly touched you, or made you laugh makes for much better fb for me. I try to do that but sometimes nothing in particular struck me, or the fic was just like... watching Neighbours... or reading a Mills & Boon - it was a pleasant way to pass some time and 'good job' acknowledges that.

Anyway, to answer your questions:
How do you like your feedback?
However it comes, basically. Feedback = bouncy Jape

Do you think that every fic deserve a kind word or should we be discerning?
If you enjoyed it, even a little, I think it deserves to be acknowledged. Bad fic deserves the back button.

Writers do you find the feedback left to you useful?
I don't get much concrit so it isn't really useful, but it's definitely appreciated, even the one word comments.

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

I do find quite interesting your point about viewing figures because one of the things we did was to look at a fic published on a board with a view/comment counter. The first chapter got 185 viewing and 5 comments, the second chapter got 70 viewings and 1 comment. The third chapter two years later hasn't seen the light of the day. (the fic wasn't mine BTW...)
The comments were all pretty detailed but that board was supposed to be a writers'workshop so that wa to be expected.
The point is the proportion of viewings against comments is more or less the same.
The simple fact is that the absence of comments did put off the writer from carrying on (and the fic was promising)and gave her confusing messages on her potential and what was expected from her.
We want the writers, be it Mills & Boons or James Joyce to a) give us what we want and b) give us their best?
Let's tell them.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

Depends on the fic and depends on the person.

When you're in a fandom that is small, you often "get to know" what writers are like and what they can take. So feedback in that sense is kind of a cheat.

If you are giving feedback to someone you don't know, the common netiquette seems to be to say nice things. Not just "good job," but I really liked the story because..." It seems common netiquette also dictates you don't tell a stranger that they're writing sucks or that they could have done such and such better. Doesn't mean people always do. Doesn't mean it is right or wrong, either.

I usually save the heavier handed stuff to betas. Or if I am a beta, I approach a fic in a stricter sense.

As a writer, I am open to feedback of all kinds. But honestly, I've never gotten any serious flames or "criticism" that I would warrant useful. When a person tells me how much they hate mini!Jack and how they hated seeing him in the fic really isn't any criticism on my writing. It's on a character they don't like. And then they go further to say they are loving the story. Or I'll get feedback where someone says my fic doesn't make sense yet I have 99% of everyone else get it. I take feedback like that with a grain of salt. If the majority of people came to me with the same problem, that would be a different story.

I've been fairly lucky when it comes to feedback. I don't really get flamed (yet), and people generally give me good job type feedback, but also detailed about what they liked -- plot, characterization, whatever. I know that I'm lucky and that other people have gotten very hurtful feedback with their stuff.

IU guess it just comes down to the fic and who's reading it.

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

August 3rd, 2006
Depends on the fic and depends on the person.

IU guess it just comes down to the fic and who's reading it.

I do agree with most of what you are saying. I think also that a lot depends from the writing. Your writing is intelligent and sophisticate. The rest comes from that.

[zelda-zee.livejournal.com]

I think I am quite different from you in what kind of fb I like, b/c I don't really like getting crit from readers. Questioning yes, asking for clarification, or trying to understand where I was going w/something, that is fine. But I dislike it when readers point out parts of my fic they don't like, or things they think I did wrong. That's a beta's job & that's why I use them.

I write what I want to write for the most part, otherwise all I'd write would be Jack/Sawyer, since that's what most of the people in my fandom want to read. But that's not all I want to write. So, while I love fb, my writing doesn't depend on it.

I guess I am fortunate. I feel like I get wonderful, thoughtful fb from my readers, and I absolutely love that. I love it when a reader feels the fic is worth spending the time and effort to write long, detailed comments. But then, I'm very fond of simple squeeing as well.

I think, at the risk of sounding bossy, that in your case, maybe it would help to try to focus on the reader's intent, rather than on the details of what they say, if those details bother you. When I reply to fb, I try to get myself into a head space where I let myself feel grateful for the fact that people are willing to read my writing (something that still amazes me), and try to honor that in my reply.

Fb lets me recognize things in my writing that I would not be aware of otherwise. I definitely learn a lot from the fb I receive. One thing I particularly enjoy is when a reader interprets something about my fic differently than I intended. I find that fascinating.

As to leaving fb for sub-par fics, I usually don't, though if a fic has lots of potential and just has some minor problems, or the writer has some issues that are fixable I will leave fb pointing out the good in the fic & encouraging them to use a beta. Which probably makes no impact, as people that don't use betas have lots of reasons why they don't, and you usually can't change their minds.

I'm sorry to hear you're having such a tough time writing. I'm a bit of a perfectionist myself and it ties me up in knots at times. I hope you manage to get to a better place soon.

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

One thing that I am discovering is that I do have some strong people that I love and respect around me ready to tell me both when my writing is really not working and when my perfectionism goes bonkers.

I do agree with you on not leaving bad feedback. But I do strondly believe in pointing out good things to people. Show them what you like. And another good thing you pointed out is about questions or clarifications. I love asking questions...and people asking questions to me.

Part One....*le sigh*

[nufaciel.livejournal.com]

I don't know. Maybe it's because of how long I've been in fandom, but I don't agree with you. Like Joe said, yes, there are times when I wonder what readers are smoking to encourage some of the most appalling fics I've ever seen, (Please, let's not encourage the Mary Sues, for the love of Pete), but I disagree with what you've said here.

I've been in fandom since 2001. Not as long as some, a lot longer than many. My first forays into fandom were in two of the biggest out there: Harry Potter (you will not find a bigger fandom), and Lord of the Rings. I've seen all the discussions. I've been through the kerfuffles concerning which kind of feedback is better, and whether or not concrit should be sent, etc. The view that "good job" feedbacks are basically crap puts you in the minority from all the discussions I've ever seen. I'll get to why in a minute.

If you don't want to believe the one liners, that's your deal, and your right. Just like it's someone's right to write Mary Sue fic (even if I want to drop kick said author across the Atlantic for writing that plague upon humanity). However, your thinking on why feedback of a few words is bad is flawed in its argument.

This kind of comment tend to be given indiscrimintately, not helping other readers to discriminate.

Since when did it become the responsibility of other readers to help you decide what to read?

These people actually *liked* the story, most likely. When new people get into fandom, their tastes aren't discriminating. Mine weren't. My tastes in fic has been refined over the years, and I'm very picky about what I read now. But never once have I used feedback of others to figure out if I'm going to like a story or not.

That's what rec lists and reviews (very different from feedback) are for. Find someone whose taste is the same as yours (because if you're relying on feedback for that, you're gonna get ten people with ten very different views on what good fic is, and not one of them may be your view), and rely on their recs or reviews.


not helping new writers in understanding what is good, what simply fits the models and what is seriously bad

Perhaps not, but how long have those leaving feedback been in fandom? Have they been in long enough to learn these things?

For those who have been in fandom long enough, they also know that 98% of new writers *don't want* someone telling them their new shiny toy might not be so shiny after all. Writers have to read stories themselves, immerse themselves in writing and fandom and pick apart the writing process to learn about it. I've done so and continue to do so. I'd suggest going onto a comm like fanficrants, which is chocked full of fandom and writing related discussion. Read through past entries on ffrants and you'll end up seeing patterns and what to avoid. Also, google is our friend, as is friending those who are known to give good writing discussions and tips, and there are a ton of comms out there to help with various aspects of writing. I didn't have people leaving me feedback, telling me left and right all this stuff. I had to get off my lazy butt and put myself out there, put forth the effort to learn what is good and bad in writing. You can look at the difference in quality between my HP fic Ordinary World and my CSI fic Whispers on the Wind. WotW is far superior in every way, because I learned, and it wasn't from feedback.


No fic and no writer is perfect.

I'll agree with this. :D

Part Two...why can't they make replies longer?

[nufaciel.livejournal.com]

Part of the writer's job...is to keep learning. Feedback is one way to point out to a writer what they are doing right and what they are doing wrong.


Again, you're assuming that the writer *wants* to know what they're doing wrong. If you are one of those writers (and you seem to be, like me), you're in the minority. 90% of the writers out there *don't* want constructive criticism. They don't want to see their baby dissembled and picked apart. Some don't care, they just want to write, no matter how crappy it is, and be told they're the greatest thing since mold on bread. These are the writers who deep down don't want to learn to hone their skills, whether or not they'll admit that. These are the people who don't want someone like me beta reading for them (and to note here, I only critique when beta reading when I'm asked...Kirill has, and she's still standing...she's not huddling in a corner with knife in her hand, traumatized by yours truly. She's happily pouncing around at someone else's house for the weekend). These are also the people who don't want me to review their fics. These are the people who don't want to take the time to learn how to make their stories better. These are also the people who have skins about as thick as gift wrap tissue paper. These are also the people who go crying to list or community mommies and tell about the bad, bad person who was mean to them, and can we please ban them from the internet forever for being so mean and nasty.


If you don't want to tell them what's wrong, at least tell them what they did particularly right

How does this help a writer? It gives the impression that there was nothing wrong with their fic. It gives them a false sense that their writing was near perfection, when it was possibly riddled with enough epithets to make me want to poke my eyes out, then/than errors that make me want to screech, and writing so lazy you don't see a single "said" in the fic, but every other speaking verb under the sun because they don't want to take five minutes to write a sentence describing someone's attitude when speaking when they can just use "snarled". This doesn't help them become a better writer. Might reinforce some good points, but it reinforces the bad. Most concrit writers aren't going to give the good without the bad, and we reach the above issue I just addressed.

even pointing out good things is helpful to other readers that in this way may get to look at a fic in a different way.

Why color your viewpoint of a story by someone else's feedback, when their view of the story (and what makes a good story) may be vastly different from your own, prior to reading it? Again, here recs and reviews of people you trust are more helpful than someone you don't know from Adam. I'd never trust someone else's viewpoint in the SGA fandom, because I'm new to it. I have to develop my own opinions, and then I can decide whose opinion I trust. This was actually an issue that ended up on fandom wank a few weeks ago for the HP fandom.


Feedback where you get more than "good job" is great, but most of the time, you're not gonna get it. I don't, and I adore concrit. The ratio of feedback to actual reads is eye boggling. When I had my stories on AFF, I had 1,700 hits on one story, and maybe ten reviews, and all of them "good job". Many were probably re-reads, others not their cup of tea (not everyone likes Harry/Lucius). I got mostly "good job, can't wait for more" on my fic OW, and I only get feedback on it now when people read it on one of the sites where it's not completely posted. People don't review, or when they do, it's often "I liked it. Keep writing."

Also, when I leave concrit, whether mostly positive or mostly negative, I *don't* leave it in public. I email the author, so it's not gonna help anyone but the author anyway. I think it's rude to pick apart someone's fic in public, unless they specifically state they don't mind if it's done. And I don't leave concrit unless the author specifically asks for it.

Last part. Really. I promise. :D

[nufaciel.livejournal.com]

Some don't leave more than two or three words because they don't know what to say. Others don't have time. I sure as hell don't, especially when I don't know if the author accepts criticism, because I won't go to big effort unless I point out errors along with the good stuff.

Someone above me mentioned relying on beta readers for giving concrit on a story. That only works if you have a good beta who is willing to give an honest opinion and can actually do their job. These are few and far between. Most betas shouldn't be beta readers, because the mistakes in the fic are just as bad, if not worse, than when the writer started.

As for perfectionism, you should see the process I go through to get a fic written. Whispers on the Wind started out with a two-line challenge, and ended up with a major outline, schematics and floor plans for crime scenes, and continual revisions while I wrote, before it even got into the hands of the betas who edited it.

Re: Last part. Really. I promise. :D

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

*snickers*

You know I read your comments last night, decided i was to tired to formulate an intelligent reply and kept dreaming of Joe IMing me to reply to you?

As somebody who has been in fandom quite a long time myself ( I survived Stargate Shipper wars after all...) I do see most of what you say, and even if I don't necessarily agree with you what you said makes good food for thought, and that was exactly what I needed.

I am deeply enjoying reading all these comments and ideas and I am very grateful to you for helping me think.

[mickey-sixx.livejournal.com]

As a person, I'm very self-conscious. I have low self-esteem, I can't take compliments very well (much like you) and I take things to heart. I worry way too much about what people think and that is something that will be hard for me to stop.

As a writer, all that doesn't matter. Well, not as much anyway. I've never been worried about posting my fic to you guys at Sylum, because I know that you guys are truthful and supportive. Feedback from you lot is great, and I love every single comment. To me, it doesn't matter what the comment is, whether it's long, short, one word, a whole paragraph, I honestly don't care. The fact that someone has taken the time to comment on one of my fics is enough for me.

Maybe that's just me being easily pleased.

But my best friend has read nearly all my fics, and constantly gushes about how good I am and stuff. My reply? Most, if not all the time is 'No, I'm not'. It's not that I don't trust her to tell me the truth, I just find it hard to believe about myself.

You say that putting 'Good Job' or something similar in feedback doesn't help the writer any. I agree and dissagree with this. You are right, this statement doesn't give the writer any feedback on exactly what was good (or bad) about their fic. But it still shows that that person giving feedback has taken the time to read the fic and give feedback. And sometimes it's hard to pin-point the reasons why the fic is good or bad. That's why my reviews are usually 'I love it! More!' or something similar. It's not that I can't be bothered to point out things, it's that I find it hard to put into words and not make myself sound stupid while doing it.

*looks up* Wow....that was long... Why is it that most of my comments to you are like HUGE! *grins and hugs you* Love you, chick.

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

August 3rd, 2006
*looks up* Wow....that was long... Why is it that most of my comments to you are like HUGE! *grins and hugs you* Love you, chick.

Well... in my convoluted mind this is a compliment... I always hope that what I do write encourage people to think because it makes me think.

A lot of what you said in a way does applies to me too, especially the "if my best friend reads it I don't believe it bit..."

[jans-intentions.livejournal.com]

I think it largely depends on the writer and the fber. It helps if a writer can try to be calm, and enjoy it. It's always unexpected, whatever, to hear what other people think.

I did ask someone recently to pretty much stop reading me because she was just being very unhelpful and while I think she is on some kind of crusade with concrit, I was left feeling that she wanted to take me down a peg with every chapter. She was not who she used to be, so I told her I would rather remember her as she was.

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

Strangely enough while writing this I had in mind the early days of darker_spike when there was a huge campaign to encourage people to leave "intelligent comments"

It was highly influential on me, and I have always tried, not always successfully I admit, to leave comments that are polite and encouraging but at the same time taylor made.
There are cases, like it has been with your Kept and is happening with the Janitor as well (and the last chapter of Wings too) were the story is "too good" and leave me so emotially charged that I need to leave so emotionally charged that I do need to leave some space between me and the story before being able to make a comment. And I guess that in that case silence is a form of comment, even if an easily misunderstood one.

I am aware of the danger of concrit crusaders that are mostly on a power trip, but I do still want to believe in the capacity of fanfic readers to be intelligent, discriminating and able to express themselves.

[jans-intentions.livejournal.com]

The early days of DS were a wonderful time, weren't they? It's not ever been the same since, but it was heaven.

I understand what you are saying and I think your comments are fantastic. Very appreciated and thoughtful. I do think that the odd bump in the road with someone is never worth fussing over in the end because you just don't know what people will bring. It's like a banquet you prepare and how people will respond and the foods they bring are all unique.