A question to Writers and one to Betas

[matilda36]

To writers:

What do you ask of your beta?

To Betas:

What do you offer to your writers?

Comments

[mistokath13.livejournal.com]

generally - I'd say: pay attention to grammar (*grimaces* there it is again...), spelling, the inner structure and logic of a fic...be honest, tell if something sucks, is unlogic and all...that's what comes to my mind first...don't know if this helps, though. (and if I half-beta, I try to do the same.)

Oh, and if possible, do it as fast as possible. *shrugs* but that's just me...

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

This helps indeed...

I tend to be a pretty hands on beta working alongside my writers, getting bits and giving instant feedback (generally in form of questions). This tend to reduce what is usually called the beta period a lot because all that is left is the final reading for flow...

Only I found that I am pretty unusual in working this way and wanted to know what people thoughts on the subjects were. Does having your beta working as a coach alongside you help? Or should simply read, check the grammar and leave the writer alone?

[mistokath13.livejournal.com]

Well, that depends. I, for myself, am a horrible person, and fiercely protective of my fics, so sometimes, if faced with someone who asks me questions like "Why did you do this? Wouldn't it be better..." reacts by snapping back...happened in the past, and will probably happen in the future as well. But on other days, I need someone who pokes me along, while I write - just ask Evelyn, I think she had to face both sides. *grins* and I guess it's not the easiest thing, if you try to help someone and make a suggestion and this stubborn, childish, idiot writer answers simply with: "No, I don't want it that way..."
*snickers* one thing, though: never say: "That doesn't make sense." I mean, to the writer it obviously does, or s/he wouldn't have written it, right?

So, in general, I'd say it depends on who you work with as a beta, and that it's different from case to case, maybe even from day to day. You should talk with your writers about that - I know that you beta for some. But - your style can't be that wrong, right, after all, you betaed the first and second place in the last sylum challenge. *hugs* do it your way. It will work out best.

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

I will never say "It doesn't make sense" to a writer. Or to anybody. My standard reaction would be "Explain" or "Tell me more".
I know that the way I work is ok with the people I beta for, but I am interested to see how different people work...if there are new tecniques I can learn or simply reflect on the trade of being a beta.

Also having now a challenge i need to think clearly about what I want from a beta

*smiles*

Or simply, as usual thinking too much...

[mistokath13.livejournal.com]

*hugs* it's good to know what you want. So yeah. Not thinking too much.
It may be a good thing to ask a writer to explain what they meant instead of simply assuming that it doesn't make sense. I mean, I do understand (when I've slept and am not in a bad mood and all ;D) that from the point of the reader, it probably really doesn't make sense. When I attempt to look over something (I somehow refuse to call what I'm doing betaing, since I'm more than obviously not good enough for that) I try to point things out that seem...strange, for example when the inner logic of the fic is somehow screwed. If character a says one thing and contradicts themselves in the next scene. Things like that. And well, I try to do it as quick as I can...well, if it works or if I'm a total failure, you can ask Suza that...

*hugs* I'm sure you are a great beta and writer.

[japewierd.livejournal.com]

Of my beta: check and correct my punctuation, grammar, switching of tenses, wordiness. Also if I gloss over something you think would be interesting comment that you'd like to read more about it. If something doesn't make sense ask for clarification because, quite likely, I didn't realise you can't all see inside my head ;)

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

so you tend to see your beta like your spare pair of reading glasses? *winks*

[japewierd.livejournal.com]

Yeah pretty much I suppose. I do re-read and re-write everything to death before I send it out to beta, and I think that I'm learning some of my weaknesses (hit me over the head with a correction often enough and it'll stick).

I don't consider myself a writer though, I just dabble in it as I do with pretty much everything so I may not be the norm... no change there then ;)

[matilda36.livejournal.com]

July 18th, 2006
I don't consider myself a writer though, I just dabble in it as I do with pretty much everything so I may not be the norm... no change there then ;)

*hugs*

I love you not being the norm. And who want to be the norm? The norm is boring...

[japewierd.livejournal.com]

I've never wanted to be normal, in fact I go out of my way to avoid it *g*

*hugs back*

[nufaciel.livejournal.com]

I may have to split this. I don't know how big this discussion will be. :p

What do you ask of your beta?

It really depends on what the piece is. If it's a drabble or ficlet, I often only want someone to check for errors and possible ambiguousness, since the piece is so small.

For longer short fics (1000-9999 words), longer one-shots (10,000+) and novel length fics (50,000+ words), I always have more than one beta reader. Always. I expect them to point out grammar, spelling, and punctuation mistakes that I might have missed (as an author, I tend to type quickly, which makes mistakes highly probable, but I also revise several times as I write, so I catch most, but all writers do not catch all of their own mistakes). I also expect them to watch out for characterization issues (if they're well versed in the fandom), plotholes, flow, wordiness, or just about anything that tends to rub them the wrong way. I expect a beta reader to ask questions when they feel necessary and to point out that something doesn't make sense or doesn't belong, because guess what? Beta readers are readers as well, and if they catch something, it's likely that the masses are going to catch it as well and go "WTF"?

I had four beta readers for my CSI fic, Whispers on the Wind, each of them strong in their own areas.

I always expect any honkin' big OOCness to be bitchslapped into submission, no matter the size of the piece, but I tend not to publish anything in a fandom until I can get the characterization down, which means that some stories get revised several times until it sounds right.

I don't expect them to take abuse from me. But I expect them to do their freakin' job. Beta reading is a job, albeit a labor of love and not money. Nothing irritates me more than to see someone's header,

"Beta: So-and-so, who is the bestest beta EVER!!!!1!!"

and have the fic riddled with so many mistakes you want to spork out your eyes just to stop the pain. Part of the problem is you don't know if the beta just sucks, or if the author has the Anne Rice superiority complex when it comes to their own writing. If it isn't the author doing the "hugs-fic-to-chest,"you-want-me-to-change-perfection," "oh-noz-ur-stifling-my-creativity," my-fic-is-perfect-and-therefore-doesn't-need-your-input" thing, then the beta obviously does it to read fic of favorite authors first and isn't doing the writer a service. This is why I'm picky about who beta reads my stories.

I don't expect them to beta a 10-page fic in a day. Nor do I expect a 25+ page fic to get back to me within a couple of days. If I asked that of my beta, I'd fully expect the beta to look at me and go, "Bitch, please!" and smack me across the room. Why? Because *gasp* beta readers are people, too, and they have real lives and family, and their own shit in fandom to deal with. Do I expect it to take a month to beta a piece less than 30 pages? No. But I don't expect to see it for several days.

[nufaciel.livejournal.com]

Ha! Did have to split.

What do you offer your writers?

As a beta, first and foremost, I offer them the viewpoint of a reader. Because that's what I am, the majority of the time.

What I offer depends on what the writer asks of me, and whether or not I've done enough beta reading for the author to know what he/she is going to ignore even when I point things out. If the writer tends to ignore something consistently, I don't point it out, and it's the writers problem if he/she gets criticism for it.

The writer will get what he/she asks for, and depending on what it is, he/she may not like it, if he/she is sensitive about their work. I will check for characterization, ambiguousness, continuity, grammar, spelling, punctuation, plotholes, etc. I will kick the writer in the ass about the overuse of epithets (the other man, the blond, the hunter, the FBI agent, etc) and the horrid overuse of every speaking verb and no use of the word "said". (God, I want to take the person who created the asshat rule of "Never use "said" in creative writing" into the nearest road and run him over with my dad's suburban over and over again.)

I will not have your 25 page fic back to you in a day. A few days, yes, but don't ask me to do it unless it's an emergency (by that I mean the deadline for your fest fic is tomorrow and you just finished it. You just finished a fic and want it out tomorrow because you can't wait for the world to see it? So not an emergency.)

While I don't expect writers to take all non-grammar/spelling/punctuation suggestions as gospel, I expect them to take them into consideration and take them seriously, especially when I am well-versed in the fandom/culture. It's up to the writer if they want to change their stories ultimately, but it is up to me to point out where they could make their story stronger/better, because I am reader as well, and you can be sure that others are thinking the same thing that I am.

I don't expect to have to take abuse from a writer. This is something I'm doing as a favor to them. I'm not getting paid for it. I don't get anything from it. Why the hell should I waste my time if you don't want your story picked apart and rebuilt in a stronger manner that will reach more readers? You want to rip into me for making suggestions (that you don't have to take) about making your story stronger? Well, fuck you. Go find some simpering fangirl to tell you how great and perfect you are and stroke your ego when you're tired of masturbating all over your own fic.

In case you didn't notice, the above irritates me to no end. :p These are also fics that tend to be labeled as bad!fic and find their way onto criticism lists, if anyone even pays attention to them. People like this are also why I almost never comment, if I do stumble across them. Why bother when the writer is going to cry and scream "FLAME!" when you point out what they could have done to make the fic better? And these people wonder why they don't get the feedback they want.

It may seem, from my words, that I'm a harsh beta. I'm really not. The people I've beta'ed for are still standing strong and happily (I've beta for Dru, Bev, Joe, Lucas, Bev C, and Janelle to name a few). None of them have ever ran home crying. I give respect, but I also expect it in return from the writer. And I respect my betas' opinions, even if I don't take their advice.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I ask for everything inluding their first born from my betas...

Heh. Actually, I just ask for grammarn and common sense. I'm pretty sound when it comes to characterization (most of the time) and plot (most of the time), but sometimes I get too colorful for my own good and that's where my betas put their foot down. But they don't hesitate to tell me if I do have a character off in a scene or if they've found a plot hole. But I usually find my own plot holes first so they get to hear me whine about it ;)

As a beta, I do my best with grammar, but I'm more apt to pick up on bad characterization, or characterization I think could use a little tweaking. Also, since I am plot intensive, I tend to focus a lot on whether the pacing is slow or if something seems to be lacking. Most people I beta for seem to be okay with it. But sometimes you hit a sentive spot. I think it's key to remember not to be a bitch when beign a beta. Be honest, but nice, and always interlace compliments with comments about needs improvement.

[joereaves.livejournal.com]

It kind of depends on waht I'm writing (or what I'm betaing) and who I'm writing for/being betaed by.

For example. If I'm writing Empire, especially Joe/Lucas I don't want or need beta comments on what is or isn't in character, no one's view of a character is ever identical to someone else's but I know *my* Joe and my mate's Lucas as well (if not better) than I know myself. You can make suggestions for wouldn't it be more in character for them to do X ... but I'm almost certainly going to ignore it.

On the other and I have fic planned for Mac/Vic (OaT) and Klaus/Dorian and I am going to find someone who knows the fandom and get them to read it as I go and tell me if I'm veering OOC because I don't know those fandoms so well.

My beta needs to pick up the type of typos the spell check won't and my characters have a distrubing tendency to have clothing vanish or reapppear at random. My grammar and spelling are pretty good in general so sometimes I just ship it off to someone to spend five minutes picking out the typos and wandering clothing ... and the fact that in Herding Cats Joe became Jack for an entire paragraph and no on enoticed until last week!

As a beta I am picky as hell, maybe not quite as picky as Star ... :D I am a total spelling and grammar nazi - no I'm not stifling your damn creativity I'm trying to make sure you stick to english and your readers can udnerstand your fic.... I also tend to read for internal logic, in character-ness and plot holes. Just ask my big brother. I complained she was taking her FBI gent out of his normal jurisdiction ... in the show the guy has gone to mexico and Japan without any comment! So I'm pickier than the show writers. But it depends who I'm reading for, my comments tend towards the sarcastic and snarky, but some people get hurt by that. Currently I'm betaing something featuring mainly Jack Bauer and Chase, neither of whom I know well, so there's less commenting on what is or isn't in character...

Generally I would say every beta/writer relationship is unique and how you do it depends on what works for you.

[joereaves.livejournal.com]

Replying to myself because I forgot something I meant to mention.

I am very selective about who I have beta for me ... although pretty unselective about who gets sneak peaks ... They don't have to have better grammar than me because as a general rule any mistakes are just that mistakes, they're not ignorance, they're typos and I can usually spot those. They do have to be able to spot spelling typos and weird mistakes. They're there mainly to check I didn't miss something stupid, whcih I will then inevitably spot 5 seconds after posting.

I am also selective about who I beta for. If you get your fic back from me and it's covered with the computer equivalent of red ink and snark by the bucketload, it doesn't mean I think you suck as a writer. If I agree to beta for you, especially if I agree more than once, you can be pretty certain I like your stuff. Why would I force myself to spend time on it if I didn't?

Now I am usually a fast beta, very fast. The longer the fic the longer it will take (obviously) but also because I'll do it in bits rather than one fell swoop. However I can usually get it back in less than a week no matter what.

I am unusual in that I write and beta in one go. I go through the fic once and once only, with rare exceptions. A while ago Bev wrote a humourous fic that I couldn't beta on the first go through because I was laughing too hard. Usually I will go through line by line and beta as I go. One read through only. That's how I write, I rarely edit (except to correct mistakes my betas have found) my own stuff; so hat's how I beta.

[nufaciel.livejournal.com]

I'm the opposite. I revise my own writing constantly. I'm a bit OCD when it comes to writing. For long fics, I tend to write quite a bit, then I end up going back and revise what I've written (not rewriting the whole thing, but changing bits and words that sound better than what was written, adjusting for the character, etc). I always tend to go back and re-read when I put a story aside for a bit and the come back, and I inevitably revise some more. I only rewrite when I come up with something that is better than what I'd written earlier.

We won't even talk of my preliminary writing issues, like plot, characters, outlines. *hides*

[joereaves.livejournal.com]

We won't even talk of my preliminary writing issues, like plot, characters, outlines. *hides*

Oh now that I do. Lucas and I practically need to know the shoe size of our characters, it's why we try to avoid Original Characters, we need to know *everything*. We have folders of web sites for research, spreadsheets with timelines on, maps, you name it. Unles it's fantasy then it has to be as historically accurate as possible, down to the slang used and the type of food available and everything.

[verito295.livejournal.com]

*snickers* I think the two issues more worthy of mentioning.. Joe doing research on what would the genitalia of a panther God look like (which turned out oh so very useful for our huminal universe) and my own research on sexual slang and terminology throughout time... You would think somewhere on the net someone would have a site like that.. :D

[cleo1969.livejournal.com]

What do I ask of my beta?

I ask that they keep me coherent. When I write I just go as my feelings and thoughts take me. I usually edit and group it all together into a semblance of coherency but not all the time. Mostly I ask a beta for the help with grammar and punctuations. I can never know when I've used too much or not enough. I also like to have someone who can help me bounce ideas off and can see where I digressed if it sounds off. Not to mention keep me in the correct verb tenses throughout. I always seem to digress somewhere.

What do I offer to my writers?

The best I can do with grammar and punctuations. Help with the logical progression and points of omission. Clarifications of points that are weak or muddled. In general someone to bounce ideas off. I offer what I expect to get from a beta. At least to the best of my abilities.

[crowgirl13.livejournal.com]

What do you ask of your beta?

The first question I *always* ask is: Does the piece make sense? I know full well that I have a very twisty brain, and just because something makes sense to me doesn't mean it will make sense to anyone else. This is a lesson I learned the hard way, through poetry writing. The nuts and bolts stuff- spelling, grammar, etc.- is something I assume to be part of the betaing deal. Aside from that, my needs vary, depending on the writing in question. If I'm trying something new [ie. "I'm writing drabbles in second person PoV- are my tenses working?"], then I need the techique critiqued. If it's original fic, then I need to know that the world-building and characters are solid and believable. Sometimes all I need is a quick read-through [I'd say this only applies to shorter fic/ poetry, but that's pretty much what I've been posting].

I *am* picky about who beta's my work. I like developing working relationships with betas, and then sticking with them. Assuming that the beta reader in question can put up with me. :D The writer/ beta relationship is a collabration for me, similar but not quite the same as co-authorship. The more interactive/ involved my beta is, the happier I am. I really *enjoy* honest, hard concrit- and I'm not easily offended. I've been critiquing creative work - both art and writing- for a long time now, so I have a thick skin and understand that the purpose of crit is to hone my work. I will never abuse/be cruel to a beta- such behavior is outside of my personal paradigm- but I *will* flail about and whine on occasion. I also reserve the right to not take everything a beta says as gospel. :D

What do you offer to your writers?

I'm extraordinarily adaptable, actually. Though I admit that I'm cautious and picky about who I will beta for, I can shape my beta-ing to fit the writer's needs. I was trained as a critical reader by my dad- he's a scientist and the *hardest* critic I have *ever* run up against. He and I used to have rather heated discussions when he'd look over my school essays, but that background turned out to be a life-saver when I jumped into the shark pool...er, that is, when I went to art school. Anyway - I'm not a hardass beta [though I *can* be, if you request it];I consider betaing fun.

Oh man, I'm starting to run out of steam here. Besides, I think that Star and Joe covered alot of my feelings about both questions. Thanks! ♥!

Basically, I love writing. It's both a passion and a craft to me. My goal it to write to the best of my abilities. The hope is that my betas will help me achieve that goal; that's also what I strive when beta-ing for others.

Now I have to go find some lunch. Smooches to you too, Ody!

[zelda-zee.livejournal.com]

Well, I both write and beta, so I'll answer both.

Above anything else, I ask a beta to be honest. I want them to think of my fic first, before thinking about what I might think of what they have to say. I would rather dump a fic than post something that isn't as good as it can be. B/c I'm insecure I like to hear what's good along w/what needs work, otherwise I don't cope as well w/the crit. I expect to have to do more work on a fic after it's betaed, so I want to know when things don't flow or need to be rewritten or rethought. I'm willing to scrap parts I like if a beta can show me why I should. I want a beta to push me to be a better writer.

When I beta, I try to do for a writer what I want betas to do for me - help make the writing as good as it can be. So I'm honest and I really think about the fic in question and try to make sure I don't miss anything. If the fic needs work I try to push a writer to take that extra step to make it better, going beyond their comfort zone if necessary.

When you find a beta you click with, it's about so much more that punctuation and run-on sentences.